Rent to Rent

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Rent to Rent

Postby Nick » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:39 pm

I got the message


The most hysterical thing is that the term 'rent to rent' has been trade marked!!


All I could think of was

ROFL

I didn't believe anyone could be that stupid, so I looked it up: Rent to Rent

Trademarked for Estate Agency & Training - a bit of an indication as to where she thinks it's value is! That will be £340 she wasted - unlikely to be more because if she had taken advice she would have been told not to waste her money.

The trademark attorney will be able to help you navigate through the trademark strength spectrum to select a strong, protectable trademark. It is best to select a trademark from categories (a) through (c) listed below, with (a) and (b) being the easiest to register and protect.

I don't think she stands a chance on Estate Agency - Training, yes if it was non-Property training, but I think her TM falls into:

(e) Generic - Weak and Unprotectable. Generic terms or common words for the products or services cannot function as a trademark because it would prevent others from rightfully using the common name for the product or service that they make. Super Glue, after a costly court battle, was deemed generic when used on a strong, rapid setting glue and not entitled to trademark protection.


A guide to Trademarks
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Rich G » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:45 pm

I think she's only trademarked it because her real interest in RTR is in selling courses and books. If your main interest is in doing it there is no point in a TM. Says it all really.
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Rich G » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:07 am

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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Nick » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:58 am

Rich G wrote:Really good discussion going on at http://www.facebook.com/groups/ukbmv/pe ... 347945822/


Yes - very good!

Apparently lenders attend property network meets too. It surprised me somewhat that they go to that length.

Lisa Orme Yes they do Angela and read forums even member/invite only ones as do HMRC, the SRA and the FSA.


Lisa - you missed the CSA off that list. The CSA submitted forum posts & website pages to my Court Case with them!
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Ken E » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:47 am

Nick wrote:
Rich G wrote:Really good discussion going on at http://www.facebook.com/groups/ukbmv/pe ... 347945822/


Yes - very good!

Apparently lenders attend property network meets too. It surprised me somewhat that they go to that length.

Lisa Orme Yes they do Angela and read forums even member/invite only ones as do HMRC, the SRA and the FSA.


Lisa - you missed the CSA off that list. The CSA submitted forum posts & website pages to my Court Case with them!


Well they obviously dont attend the the recent Pin meeting I went to where the resident mortgage broker proudly proclaims to a full room that one lender might have minimum income requirements but dont check! Funnily enough when I saw him do that, the next guy who stood up was offering some form of broker / lender chasing service for miselling of mortgages, which I guess the first guy was potentially doing.
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Rent to Rent

Postby Rob H » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:38 pm

What fascinates me in all of this, 'NMD' (to use a very broad, generic term) R2R, HMO's etc etc is that much of the education is purely theoretical. In addition to that, there is an implied reliance on circumstances such as those you mention Ken in that the 'lenders' don't bother checking.

We are often conditioned to believe that the system is flawed and that civil servants generally can't be Arsenal to undertake the stated checks and balances that are published. I think, in the main this is probably true. However, when there exists a specific investigation eg CAA vs. Parkin the serious people get involved, do their DD, compile evidence efficiently. They may then get representation from one of the CBA brigade but that's not my point,

I digress! Lisa just tells things as they are, as the T&C's state, as they should be if everyone played by the 'rules'

Gurus don't like this, they want everyone to think that the world is full if grey, that they shine the light, triers and do'ers always win, blah blah.




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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Rich G » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:01 pm

Disregarding the OP and regarding the title, I've seen enough to be fairly sure RTR is a viable strategy. But it is a sophisticated strategy that needs a sophisticated practitioner. It needs funds to set up. So IMHO not for newbies with no money. And you have to like being a landlord!
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Nick » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:14 pm

Rich,

A very true comment about having to like being a LL - in fact more like being a letting agent but paid on a different basis. Higher reward, and higher risk - so whilst those who are good at managing tenants might do well from it, I suspect many will end in tears. I am surprised that there is so much interest from Property Investors given that most like the buying and developing property, not the day to day maintenance & chasing rent arrears.
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Rich G » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:38 pm

I'm not surprised. The burdens of property ownership may outweigh the benefits, particularly in a falling market and if highly geared. With RTR the investor can have the benefit of the cashflow without some of the perils of ownership, and let someone else take the depreciation hit. Makes sense to me.
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Nick » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:47 pm

But Property Prices aren't actually falling, and interest rates are as low as they can go, so the cost of ownership is lower than normal. You know what - if there are any R2Rers out there who want to find me a property, sort out a mortgage, do it up as an HMO, lease it off me and make themselves a fortune - I'm up for it 8-) . I know who will be taking the risk, and who will be making the money :D
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Rich G » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:38 pm

Nick, you are in Pimlico, not Liverpool, and already set up to maximise income.
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Nick » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:39 am

Rich,

I'm not sure what your point is, mine is that if you look at the effort and risk required to set up and run an HMO and the rewards for doing it, the effort of setting it up is small, whilst the voids and management of an HMO are much greater than people give credit for. It's not even the big issues that everyone thinks of like voids, noise, bad debts, anti-social behaviour - it's all the little niggles that add up - PAT testing anyone? Junk mail (I get around 1000 junk mail a week to deal with)? Fire Alarm testing (once a week)?
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Rich G » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:24 am

I'm not sure I get your point either Nick?

So running a HMO isn't worth the hassle?

The idea of RTR is to take a property that is badly run, remove the hassle for the owner, and run it better. I've got no personal interest in doing it as its not my style, but I personally know a couple of people who are quietly getting on with it and doing rather well. They haven't got courses to sell and you will barely find them on the internet. There may be all sorts of people giving you all sorts of reasons why it shouldn't work, but experience seems to show that in the right hands it works.
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Nick » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:05 pm

Essentially that's my point Rich - that HMO's are 24x7 - I'd love to go for a game of golf with your friends, but I suspect that they can't do Sundays as that's when the front needs cleaning out & the bins putting out.
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Jo King » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:00 pm

in fact more like being a letting agent but paid on a different basis.


Nail hit squarely on head! As I see it there is no Rent to Rent as such, it is just being a Managing Agent, usually without the qualifications and ombudsman protection but taking more money! The point is when a tenant applies to live in a property do they realise that the Agent they're dealing with could be inexperienced, unqualified and un-registered (ARLA and Ombudsman schemes)? Do they know that in some cases they don't get their legal rights regarding eviction?
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Rich G » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:32 pm

Actually I don't think its anything like a letting agent as you have the expense of setting up and maintaining the property. Its not anything new either, just a fancy name for sub-letting. It's also a lot like lease options without the option. I was skeptical of that too but a lot of people are doing well out of them, just ask John Paul if you don't believe me. It's a sophisticated strategy that needs savvy people who have taken the trouble to educate themselves. I have no agenda on this as not something I want to do myself so you can ignore me if you like, I don't really care.
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Ken E » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:00 pm

Jo King wrote:
in fact more like being a letting agent but paid on a different basis.


Nail hit squarely on head! As I see it there is no Rent to Rent as such, it is just being a Managing Agent, usually without the qualifications and ombudsman protection but taking more money! The point is when a tenant applies to live in a property do they realise that the Agent they're dealing with could be inexperienced, unqualified and un-registered (ARLA and Ombudsman schemes)? Do they know that in some cases they don't get their legal rights regarding eviction?


You dont need qualifications or to be a member of any scheme to set up as a letting agent. Anyone can run a letting agent. It may be many R2R's have more of a vested interest in the tenants they house than many of the letting agents. Thats not an endorsement of either. Even with an ARLA letting agent there is minimal protection against eviction if a landlord gets reposessed and doesnt have any consent to let.
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Rich G » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:05 pm

Some good points there Ken.

A lot more work than a letting agent too. That's the main reason I don't want to do it, I work hard enough already, why would I want to make more work for myself :D
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Nick » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:14 pm

Rich,

I don't know why you are being so negative.

Also I don't know why you think LO are sophisticated, they are pretty straight forward and have been used in commerce for 500 years. They may be new in Property circles, and unfamiliar to landlords, but in general commerce calling them "sophisticated" would be like hiring a solicitor to translate your Tesco receipt for you.

I agree R2R isn't new - I actually tried to do one myself in 1992 although it didn't come to anything (probably just as well!).

Jo,

given that Letting Agents are unregulated I don't think it's a big deal that R2Rers aren't either, at the end of the day the tenant is protected because the buck stops with the house owner and the tenant has security of tenure. Sure tenants have a problem if the R2Rer is a shark, but there are plenty of LA sharks too.

I see that Ken was reading my post as I was typing it :lol:
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Re: Rent to Rent

Postby Rich G » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:55 pm

Nick I agree with everything you say in that last post, there must be something wrong :lol:

Oh yeah I see, except I don't understand why you think I am being negative about RTR ? I think I'm being relatively positive and you and Jo are being negative :think:

And purchase options are very old but I don't think lease options are? I agree, they aren't complicated at all, but doing them properly requires a certain level of sophistication .
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